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Australians are having fewer babies and our local-born population is about to shrink: here’s why it’s not that scary

<div class="theconversation-article-body"><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/amanda-davies-201009">Amanda Davies</a>, <em><a href="https://theconversation.com/institutions/the-university-of-western-australia-1067">The University of Western Australia</a></em></p> <p>Australians are having fewer babies, so many fewer that without international migration our population would be on track to decline in just over a decade.</p> <p>In most circumstances, the number of babies per woman that a population needs to sustain itself – the so-called <a href="https://www.who.int/data/gho/indicator-metadata-registry/imr-details/123">total fertility rate</a> – is 2.1.</p> <p>Australia’s total fertility rate dipped below 2.1 in the late 1970s, moved back up towards it in the late 2000s (assisted in part by an improving economy, better access to childcare and the introduction of the <a href="https://theconversation.com/what-the-baby-bonus-boost-looks-like-across-ten-years-81563">Commonwealth Baby Bonus</a>), and then plunged again, hitting a low of <a href="https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/population/population-projections-australia/2022-base-2071#assumptions">1.59</a> during the first year of COVID.</p> <hr /> <p><iframe id="CHdqj" class="tc-infographic-datawrapper" style="border: none;" src="https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/CHdqj/3/" width="100%" height="400px" frameborder="0"></iframe></p> <hr /> <p>The latest population projections from the Australian Bureau of Statistics assume the rate remains near its present 1.6% for <a href="https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/population/population-projections-australia/2022-base-2071#assumptions">the next 50 years</a>.</p> <p>An alternative, lower, set of assumptions has the rate falling to 1.45 over the next five years and staying there. A higher set of assumptions has it rebounding to 1.75 and staying there.</p> <p>A comprehensive study of global fertility trends published in March in the medical journal <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext#%20">The Lancet</a> has Australia’s central case at 1.45, followed by a fall to 1.33 by the end of the century.</p> <p>Significantly, none of these assumptions envisages a return to replacement rate.</p> <p>The bureau’s central projection has Australia’s population turning down from 2037 in the absence of a boost from migration.</p> <hr /> <p><iframe id="oi55c" class="tc-infographic-datawrapper" style="border: none;" src="https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/oi55c/3/" width="100%" height="400px" frameborder="0"></iframe></p> <hr /> <p>It’s easy to make guesses about reasons. Reliable contraception has been widely available for 50 years. Rents, mortgages and the other costs facing Australians of child-bearing age appear to be climbing. It’s still <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-17/career-or-baby-michelle-battersby-pregnancy-gender-/103186296">difficult to have a career</a> if you have a child, and data show women still carry the substantive burden of <a href="https://theconversation.com/mind-the-gap-gender-differences-in-time-use-narrowing-but-slowly-191678">unpaid work around the home</a>.</p> <p>The US fertility rate has fallen <a href="https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab=chart&amp;time=1950..latest&amp;country=OWID_WRL%7EUSA%7EAUS">much in line with Australia’s</a>.</p> <p>Reporting on <a href="https://theconversation.com/us-birth-rates-are-at-record-lows-even-though-the-number-of-kids-most-americans-say-they-want-has-held-steady-197270">research</a> into the reasons, Forbes Magazine succinctly said a broken economy had “<a href="https://fortune.com/2023/01/12/millennials-broken-economy-delay-children-birthrate/">screwed over</a>” Americans considering having children.</p> <p>More diplomatically, it said Americans saw parenthood as “<a href="https://fortune.com/2023/01/12/millennials-broken-economy-delay-children-birthrate/">harder to manage</a>” than they might have in the past.</p> <h2>Half the world is unable to replace itself</h2> <p>But this trend is widespread. The <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext#%20">Lancet study</a> finds more than half of the world’s countries have a fertility rate below replacement level.</p> <p><a href="https://theconversation.com/chinas-population-shrinks-again-and-could-more-than-halve-heres-what-that-means-220667">China</a>, which is important for the global fertility rate because it makes up such a large share of the world’s population, had a fertility rate as high as 7.5 in the early 1960s. It fell to 2.5 before the start of China’s <a href="https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3135510/chinas-one-child-policy-what-was-it-and-what-impact-did-it">one-child</a> policy in the early 1990s, and then slid further from 1.8 to 1 after the policy was abandoned in 2016.</p> <hr /> <p><iframe id="idC4X" class="tc-infographic-datawrapper" style="border: none;" src="https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/idC4X/3/" width="100%" height="400px" frameborder="0"></iframe></p> <hr /> <p>South Korea’s fertility rate has dived further, to the world’s lowest: <a href="https://time.com/6488894/south-korea-low-fertility-rate-trend-decline/">0.72</a>.</p> <p>The fertility rate in India, which is now <a href="https://www.un.org/development/desa/dpad/publication/un-desa-policy-brief-no-153-india-overtakes-china-as-the-worlds-most-populous-country/">more populous than China</a>, has also fallen <a href="https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?page=&amp;locations=IN">below replacement level</a>.</p> <p>Most of the 94 nations that continue to have above-replacement fertility rates are in North Africa, the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa. Some, including Samoa and Papua New Guinea, are in the Pacific.</p> <p>Most of Asia, Europe and Oceania is already below replacement rate.</p> <h2>A changing world order</h2> <p>The largest high-fertility African nation, <a href="https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/the-world-population-in-2100-by-country/">Nigeria</a>, is expected to overtake China to become the world’s second-most-populous nation by the end of the century.</p> <p>But even Nigeria’s fertility rate will sink. The Lancet projections have it sliding from 4.7 to <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext#%20">1.87</a> by the end of the century.</p> <p>The differences mean the world’s population growth will increasingly take place in countries that are among the most vulnerable to environmental and economic hardship.</p> <p>Already economically disadvantaged, these nations will need to provide jobs, housing, healthcare and services for rapidly growing populations at a time when the rest of the world does not.</p> <p>On the other hand, those nations will be blessed with young people. They will be an increasingly valuable resource as other nations face the challenges of an ageing population and declining workforce.</p> <h2>An older world, then a smaller world</h2> <p>Global fertility <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext">halved</a> between 1950 and 2021, shrinking from 4.84 to 2.23.</p> <p>The latest projections have it sinking below the replacement rate to somewhere between 1.59 and 2.08 by 2050, and then to between <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext">1.25 and 1.96</a> by 2100.</p> <p>The world has already seen peak births and peak primary-school-aged children.</p> <p>In <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)00550-6/fulltext">2016</a>, the world welcomed about 142 million live babies, and since then the number born each year has fallen. By 2021, it was about 129 million.</p> <p>The global school-age population aged 6 to 11 years peaked at around 820 million in <a href="https://www.un.org/development/desa/dpad/publication/un-desa-policy-brief-no-152-population-education-and-sustainable-development-interlinkages-and-select-policy-implications/">2023</a>.</p> <p>The United Nations expects the world’s population to peak at 10.6 billion in <a href="https://www.smh.com.au/national/the-planet-s-population-will-get-to-10-4-billion-then-drop-here-s-when-we-reach-peak-human-20231213-p5er8g.html">2086</a>, after which it will begin to fall.</p> <p>Another forecast, produced as part of the impressive <a href="https://www.healthdata.org/research-analysis/gbd">Global Burden of Disease</a> study, has the peak occurring two decades earlier in <a href="https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext">2064</a>, with the world’s population peaking at 9.73 billion.</p> <h2>Fewer babies are a sign of success</h2> <p>In many ways, a smaller world is to be welcomed.</p> <p>The concern common <a href="https://theconversation.com/a-long-fuse-the-population-bomb-is-still-ticking-50-years-after-its-publication-96090">in the 1960s and 1970s</a> that the world’s population was growing faster and faster and the world would soon be unable to feed itself has turned out to be misplaced.</p> <p>Aside from occasional blips (China’s birth rate in the <a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/1973601">Year of the Dragon</a>) the fertility trend in just about every nation on Earth is downwards.</p> <p>The world’s population hasn’t been growing rapidly for long. Before 1700 it grew by only about <a href="https://ourworldindata.org/population-growth-over-time">0.4% per year</a>. By 2100 it will have stabilised and started to fall, limiting the period of unusually rapid growth to four centuries.</p> <p>In an important way, lower birth rates can be seen as a sign of success. The richer a society becomes and the more it is able to look after its seniors, the less important it becomes for each couple to have children to care for them in old age. This is a long-established theory with a name: the <a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4116081/">demographic transition</a>.</p> <p>For Australia, even with forecast immigration, lower fertility will mean changes.</p> <p>The government’s 2023 <a href="https://treasury.gov.au/publication/2023-intergenerational-report">Intergenerational Report</a> says that whereas there are now 3.7 Australians of traditional working age for each Australian aged 65 and over, by 2063 there will only be 2.6.</p> <p>It will mean those 2.6 people will have to work smarter, perhaps with greater assistance from artificial intelligence.</p> <p>Unless they decide to have more babies, which history suggests they won’t.<!-- Below is The Conversation's page counter tag. Please DO NOT REMOVE. --><img style="border: none !important; box-shadow: none !important; margin: 0 !important; max-height: 1px !important; max-width: 1px !important; min-height: 1px !important; min-width: 1px !important; opacity: 0 !important; outline: none !important; padding: 0 !important;" src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/228273/count.gif?distributor=republish-lightbox-basic" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" /><!-- End of code. If you don't see any code above, please get new code from the Advanced tab after you click the republish button. The page counter does not collect any personal data. More info: https://theconversation.com/republishing-guidelines --></p> <p><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/amanda-davies-201009"><em>Amanda Davies</em></a><em>, Professor and Head of School of Social Sciences, <a href="https://theconversation.com/institutions/the-university-of-western-australia-1067">The University of Western Australia</a></em></p> <p><em>Image credits: </em><em>Getty Images </em></p> <p><em>This article is republished from <a href="https://theconversation.com">The Conversation</a> under a Creative Commons license. Read the <a href="https://theconversation.com/australians-are-having-fewer-babies-and-our-local-born-population-is-about-to-shrink-heres-why-its-not-that-scary-228273">original article</a>.</em></p> </div>

Family & Pets

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Global tourism industry may shrink by more than 50 per cent due to the pandemic

<p><span><a href="https://theconversation.com/institutions/university-of-south-florida-1359"></a></span> <a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/328515/original/file-20200416-192703-1x89lu.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&amp;q=45&amp;auto=format&amp;w=1000&amp;fit=clip"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/328515/original/file-20200416-192703-1x89lu.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&amp;q=45&amp;auto=format&amp;w=754&amp;fit=clip" alt="" /></a> <span class="caption"></span> <span class="attribution"><a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/" class="license">CC BY-SA</a></span></p> <p>Due to the coronavirus, people around the world have canceled their travel plans. Governments and health officials have warned the public to <a href="https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/s0409-modifications-extension-no-sail-ships.html">avoid boarding cruise ships</a> and <a href="https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/faqs.html">long flights</a>. <a href="https://www.isitcanceledyet.com/">Major events</a> like conferences, trade shows and <a href="https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/tokyo-2020-olympics-postponed-over-coronavirus-concerns-n1165046">the Olympics</a> have been canceled or postponed.</p> <p>As a result, many businesses in the travel and tourism industry are likely to find themselves in jeopardy.</p> <p>Predicting the economic impact of the coronavirus right now is akin to participating in a running competition without knowing how long the course is. However, a few things are already clear.</p> <p><strong>Our study</strong></p> <p><a href="https://m3center.org/our-team/">We conducted a study </a> during the third week of March with more than 2,000 travelers from 28 countries. Via Amazon Mechanical Turk, we asked respondents about their travel behaviors during the pandemic.</p> <p>Our study showed that 63.8% of the travelers will reduce their travel plans in the next 12 months. More than half canceled their business travel immediately due to the coronavirus.</p> <p>Results of our study predict that, compared to last year, the travel industry, which includes businesses such as airlines, hotels and restaurants, will shrink by 50% in 2020, which would mean a significant loss of jobs and revenue.</p> <p>The number of international travelers could shrink from <a href="https://www.e-unwto.org/doi/pdf/10.18111/9789284421152">1.4 billion</a> to fewer than 1 billion people. That would be the first time the international traveler number has fallen that low since 2015.</p> <p>We also asked respondents to rate their perceived image of China and Italy, two of the countries hardest hit by the pandemic. Interestingly, U.S. travelers’ image of China and Italy has deteriorated. The image of China was damaged most significantly, as some people blame China for the spread of the virus.</p> <p>However, we expect that this image may recover soon, as research shows that travelers have a <a href="https://doi.org/10.1080/19368623.2011.647264">short memory about the negative aspects of a destination after a disaster</a>.</p> <p><strong>Sizing up the impact</strong></p> <p>The travel industry has faced many challenges in the past, including the 9/11 attacks and the Great Recession, but none are similar in magnitude to the coronavirus. For example, the travel industry <a href="https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230100060_7">shrank by 31.6% after 9/11</a>.</p> <p>In the U.S, the travel and tourism industry <a href="https://www.selectusa.gov/travel-tourism-and-hospitality-industry-united-states">generated US$1.6 trillion in 2017</a> in economic output.</p> <p>A study from Tourism Economics, a company that consults in the tourism sector, predicts that the U.S. tourism industry will lose <a href="https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/11/coronavirus-travel-industry-could-lose-24-billion-in-tourism-from-outside-us.html">at least $24 billion</a> in 2020, thanks to a widespread loss of spending at restaurants, hotels, theme parks and more.</p> <p>The World Travel and Tourism Council, which represents the global private sector of Travel &amp; Tourism, <a href="https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/world-travel-coronavirus-covid19-jobs-pandemic-tourism-aviation/">predicts up to 50 million jobs</a> in the global travel industry could be lost.</p> <p>While the economic impact of the coronavirus is significant, its impact on people’s social interaction, too, will likely be felt for years to come.<em><!-- End of code. If you don't see any code above, please get new code from the Advanced tab after you click the republish button. The page counter does not collect any personal data. More info: https://theconversation.com/republishing-guidelines --></em></p> <p><em><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/faizan-ali-1032118">Faizan Ali</a>, Assistant Professor, <a href="https://theconversation.com/institutions/university-of-south-florida-1359">University of South Florida</a> and <a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/cihan-cobanoglu-1033454">Cihan Cobanoglu</a>, McKibbon Endowed Chair Professor, <a href="https://theconversation.com/institutions/university-of-south-florida-1359">University of South Florida</a></em></p> <p><em>This article is republished from <a href="https://theconversation.com">The Conversation</a> under a Creative Commons license. Read the <a href="https://theconversation.com/global-tourism-industry-may-shrink-by-more-than-50-due-to-the-pandemic-134306">original article</a>.</em></p>

International Travel

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Deadly brain shrinking fungus found in suburban Australia

<p>A fungus titled as the world’s second deadliest has been discovered in suburban Cairns, with researchers fearing it could be spread throughout the Australian tropics.</p> <p>The Poison Fire Coral fungus has caused multiple deaths throughout Asia and was originally identified by James Cook University’s Dr Matt Barrett after a local photographer took a photo of it growing in Redlynch, a suburb in western Cairns.</p> <p>“Of the hundred or so toxic mushrooms that are known to researchers, this is the only one in which the toxins can be absorbed through the skin,” said Dr Barrett, as he warned people to not touch the fungus.</p> <p>“Just touching the Fire Coral fungus can cause dermatitis (reddening or swelling of the skin). If eaten, it causes a horrifying array of symptoms: initially stomach pain, vomiting, diarrhea, fever and numbness, followed (over hours or days) by delamination of skin on face, hands and feet, and shrinking of the brain, which, in turn, causes altered perception, motion difficulties and speech impediments.”</p> <p>If left untreated, consumption can prove to be fatal due to organ failure and brain nerve damage.</p> <p>The brightly coloured fungus is usually found in the mountains of Japan and Korea, though it has been spotted in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia.</p> <p>Scientists now believe it is naturally growing in Cairns.</p> <p>“This record extends the distribution of the fungus considerably, and it may be even more widespread in tropical Australia,” Dr Barrett warned.</p> <p>“The fact that we can find such a distinctive and medically important fungus like the Poison Fire Coral right in our backyard shows we have much to learn about fungi in northern Australia.”</p>

Travel Trouble

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6 things you never knew were shrinking

<p> </p> <p><strong>1. Chocolate bars</strong></p> <p>For better or worse, these things are getting smaller and smaller – and you probably haven’t even noticed.</p> <p>Trying to cut back on carbs and sugar? You’re in luck. Many popular chocolate and snack bars are doing the job for you by shrinking ever so slightly, a 2018 BBC study found. A Snickers bar, for instance, is now 28 per cent lighter than it was four years ago, while Twix bars have lost 20 per cent of their original weight. As chocolate bars become more expensive to make, many companies have opted to downsize instead of changing their recipes or charging customers more. They’re counting on the fact that most buyers won’t notice the difference.</p> <p><strong>2. Animals</strong></p> <p>Up until about 100,000 years ago, sloths could be as tall as giraffes and beavers weighed as much as front row forwards. But that changed when homosapiens entered the picture, according to a 2018 study published in the journal Science. Due to rising global temperatures and overhunting of large mammals, the average animal size fell by an estimated 50 to 75 per cent. Experts predict that animals will continue to shrink if humans don’t adjust their behaviour. Worse, many large animals like whales and polar bears could go extinct altogether.</p> <p><strong>3. Calculators</strong></p> <p>When Anita Mark VII, one of the world’s first commercially available calculators, was launched in 1961, it could barely fit on the average school desk. But don’t let its size fool you; it could only do basic arithmetic. This personal number cruncher had a $1000 price tag, to boot. Fortunately, both the size and cost of calculators have declined over time. Today, you can slip a basic calculator into your pocket or just use an app on your smartphone.</p> <p><strong>4. Islands</strong></p> <p>In 2016, Australian researchers made an alarming discovery: Five islands in the Pacific Ocean had completely disappeared. This was no magic trick, though; the real culprit was climate change. Melting glaciers have caused sea levels to rise, covering the islands – which ranged in size from 2.5-12.4 acres – in the process. While the missing islands were not inhabited by humans, shrinking coastlines on six other islands have forced entire villages to relocate, the researchers found.</p> <p><strong>5. Car engines </strong></p> <p>Car engines have come a long way in just a century. Back in 1932, the classic Ford V8 engine weighed a whopping 230 kilograms but delivered just 48 kilowatts of power. Ford’s new EcoBoost engine, by comparison, delivers over triple the amount of power as its predecessor and is only half the weight. Car manufacturing companies are now going greener, too; the new Ford engine reduced its carbon dioxide emissions by 7 per cent.</p> <p><strong>6. The Australian population</strong></p> <p>The Australian birth rate dropped to about 1.79 births per woman in 2016, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics. That’s almost 16 per cent lower than the replacement rate of 2.1 births per woman, which is the rate predicted to keep a population stable without immigration. Experts believe that the growing number of women waiting to have children – along with a decrease in teen pregnancies – are causing the decline.</p> <p><em>Written by Brooke Nelson. This article first appeared in </em><a href="http://www.readersdigest.com.au/true-stories-lifestyle/thought-provoking/13-things-you-never-knew-were-shrinking?items_per_page=All"><em>Reader’s Digest</em>.</a><em> For more of what you love from the world’s best-loved magazine, </em><a href="http://readersdigest.innovations.com.au/c/readersdigestemailsubscribe?utm_source=over60&amp;utm_medium=articles&amp;utm_campaign=RDSUB&amp;keycode=WRA87V"><em>here’s our best subscription offer.</em></a> </p> <p><img style="width: 100px !important; height: 100px !important;" src="https://oversixtydev.blob.core.windows.net/media/7820640/1.png" alt="" data-udi="umb://media/f30947086c8e47b89cb076eb5bb9b3e2" /></p>

Caring

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How to use eggwhites to shrink your pores

<p>Worried about large pours? You can use eggwhites, apple cider vinegar, and ice to shrink them so that they appear smaller.</p> <p>Egg whites have been renowned for their pore shrinking properties, apple cider vinegar works as a toner, and ice’s cold temperatures cause the pores to contract.</p> <p><em>Note: Used alone, apple cider vinegar can dry your skin, but is safer used in conjunction with egg whites diluting it. If you have very sensitive skin, skip the vinegar.</em></p> <p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Makes:</span> </strong>One application</p> <p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">You will need: </span></strong></p> <ul> <li>1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar</li> <li>1 egg white</li> <li>Ice cube tray /freezer</li> </ul> <p><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">How to: </span></strong></p> <ol> <li>Mix apple cider and vinegar.</li> <li>Place in ice cube tray and allow to freeze.</li> <li>Once solid, remove and apply to clean skin, rubbing over areas prone to large pores.</li> <li>Let dry and sit for 15 minutes before washing off.</li> <li>Your pores should appear smaller and shallower!</li> </ol> <p><strong>Related links:</strong></p> <p><em><strong><a href="/lifestyle/beauty-style/2015/08/age-proof-hands/"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Age-proof your hands in 6 simple steps</span></a></strong></em></p> <p><em><strong><a href="/lifestyle/beauty-style/2015/08/why-to-use-retinol-for-wrinkles/"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Why you should be using retinol in your beauty routine</span></a></strong></em></p> <p><em><strong><a href="/lifestyle/beauty-style/2015/08/best-varicose-vein-treatments/"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">Causes and treatments of varicose veins</span></a></strong></em></p>

Beauty & Style

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Turns out people do shrink with age

<p>Have you noticed that as the years go by the top shelf in the cupboard seems to be further away? It’s not your imagination, it seems the myth that we shrink with age isn’t so mythical at all.</p><p>People do tend to get shorter as they age, Professor Barbara Workman, Director of the Monash Ageing Research Centre, told the ABC.</p><p>The main cause of the shrinking is the thinning of intervertebral discs in people’s back.</p><p>“They can become degenerative or they can be damaged over time, and that will mean your back is shorter because they're thinner,” Professor Workman says.</p><p>“The other reason people can get shorter as they get older is that they develop crush fractures in their vertebrae as a result of osteoporosis. With a crush fracture you actually squash down the bony blocks that are the vertebrae in the back.”</p><p>There is also a condition called sarcopenia, which is defined as a progressive loss of skeletal muscle and function that may cause “shrinking”.</p><p>It’s natural for people to experience some muscle loss in their 30s but usually it’s not noticeable. However, it’s estimated that each decade past 40 people can lose from half a centimetre to over one centimetre of height. This may accelerate past 70 to 80 years of age, and there’s usually variations between men and women.</p><p>While it may be disconcerting to find yourself perceptibly shrinking, unless you are losing height rapidly (which may be a sign of another health problem) it doesn’t really affect your wellbeing, says Professor Workman.</p><p>“Obviously people don't like shrinking and they might notice it – the way their clothes fit, the way they can reach up into high cupboards – so they may have those sorts of impacts on general lifestyle and wellbeing. But from the point of view of discomfort or actual suffering, it's not often something that happens early on.”</p>

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